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the health care bill....god in heaven bless this now united socialist states of america...it passed. im going to have to wait 16 years to get an arm transplant while illegal immigrants get cough syrup and people who use abortions as birth control have their 67th abortion of the month!

but i know how to get back at those damn dirty congressfolk who dared try to change my blessed US of A..i just won't get insurance! then when i get hit by a car or contract cancer, they'll realize what fools they were to try and better our quality of life with their silly "handouts". The government should be blowing shit up, not providing systems to treat its sick!

me and glenn beck, we weep for what our country has become. im gonna go watch more fox news for an unbiased opinion of obama hussein...while he's still in office of course, because he'll be fired soon enough so we can get back to looking for WMDs that don't exist. and hating homos.

 Hahahaha.

(Disclaimer: I know I'm 17 and shouldn't be talking...)

I'm not in complete agreement with it, but I'm at least very interested in seeing where this goes.

ohh, i see what you're doing there

i simply look forward to hearing less about it...i'm sure it's going to change very little for me

ps, don't touch my guns neither, pelosi.

people who don't know you are going to think you're serious.  guess i gotta take all my money out of the bank so when i dont get health insurance they can't get in there thru the IRS and take it.

I just don't understand the opposition to health care reform and providing some type of universal health care to people. A very large number of industrial nations make use of universal health care and it isn't a problem (yes, it's not perfect, but you're blind if you think our current system is without flaws).  The key item, which I actually agree with conservatives on, is going to be cost.  But then again, I find it funny that conservatives cry so hard that we're going to have to spend money to help make our nation better, but they don't bat an eye when we give almost unlimited funding for attacking and invading other nations. It's like conservatives forgot they spent more money during Bush's terms than during most liberal presidents' terms.

I also don't understand the stark opposition to universal health care by the middle class and especially some of the lower middle class people that you see at these tea party rallies.  Don't they understand that liberals are trying to GET them health care that they may otherwise be unable to afford?  Or what about for everyday middle class citizens who may have health care now, but if they lose their job (and when their COBRA coverage runs out) they'll either have to ante up for extremely expensive individual care plans or go without if there wasn't some sort of change to how health care functions.

The cost item is an issue, yes, but why the opposition to implementing a program that is hopefully leading to the betterment of the US citizenship?

you should all move to Canada

I'm ecstatic this bill passed, but I wish it could have been taken further into a full on France-style Single Payer system. But compromises have to be made when so many idiots yell so loudly.

Once I had this dog that had fleas and sat on the couch all day itching them. One time he rolled off the couch and I tried to catch him, but he bit me. Idiots.

http://www.last.fm/user/NWG369
this guy agrees with you!

How can you not be against the amount of debt this health care bill will cause for our kids and grandkids?  Obama bought the vote by giving his executive orders and promising certain democrat house reps what they have been going to vote no for, such as no public money will go for abortion.  i'm all for a health care reform as i do feel our country does need it, but a lot of the arguments here are that everyone deserves health care, low income-poor people.  those low income people have been receiving Medicaid, free housing, food stamps, so they've already had health care so to say they've had none has no merit.   So now with the passage of the bill, Medicaid gets expanded and excludes those from getting any of the best doctors (because those doctors dont want to work for next to nothing). 

So now they impose this bill which if you can not afford medical insurance in the first place now the government comes in and fines you.  Those of us struggling on unemployment just to pay the bills every month are now going to have the IRS going and trying to take our money we don't have for us not getting health insurance?  I've been applying for jobs for the better part of the last 3 months, the only jobs I've gotten call backs on have been in the insurance industry which is a strictly commission based industry that hires every single person they interview in hopes of picking up extra policies before they tell you "you didnt meet your quota, cya."  But thats another subject..  Basically we need to be spending money to create jobs not passing a huge health care bill that's going to take jobs away and put us further into debt.

Lets look at Caterpillar for an example here,  it's a big business.. but this bills passage is going to cost them $100million dollars.  I'm sure they'll be laying off a ton of people as how can they afford to pay that much money.. ok so this bill helps small businesses by providing health insurance so the small businesses don't need to pay the money to their small group of employees but for most the small businesses around me, they've already closed and gone out of business.  The Congressional Budget Office claims this passage will cost us Americans $12,000 a year, everyone is broke and unemployed now so when we can't afford that they send the IRS after you? 

Again I don't disagree that we need some sort of health care reform I just don't agree with the timing of it all, why now? why when we're all hurting to find work?  I'm going to end up having to take a $10 an hour job just to make rent and try to support my family and kid which is on the way.  And to answer the response "move to Canada"  no thank you.  I have friends in Canada who when they need say a surgery to replace a torn acl/mcl you get put on a waiting list and sometimes have to wait 9-12months before you can even see a surgeon.  Not to mention they pay 22%-29% of their income to the Canadian income tax and another 8%-18% to their provinces.  So almost half their income is going to their government and to get put on a waiting list for a surgery. I'm not sure where I want to live right now.

you ask why now? well politics is why. If the dems didn't pass this it would look like they couldn't get anything done and they spent the better part of a year on it. Politically speaking passing this bill is better than passing nothing at all. I mean they make it sound like we have a ticking time bomb about to go off and grandma will die if this wasn't passed as soon as possible but most of this will not been instituted until 2014.

there is politics and then there is the truth....

Aaron, I don't even know where to start...

First, if you believe so strongly about the debt burden that this reform will cause, what are your thoughts about the gigantic amount of debt that was incurred during the Iraq and Afghanistan military campaigns?  And we're still spending money on military campaigns in those regions.  Or, how do you feel about the first large bank bailout that came under Bush's watch?  There's a debt burden as well, but conservatives tend to ignore these things.

Second, in regards to Medicaid, approximately 60% of poor Americans are currently not covered by Medicaid so by saying that poor people pretty much have health care is spurious at best and outright baseless at worst.  And I may just be cribbing a bit of Wikipedia here because I don't have the time to post the exact source, but the biggest growing portion of the population that is using Medicaid are the elderly who need it for nursing home coverage. 

Third, your Caterpillar argument doesn't contain all of the facts.  The reason that Caterpillar will potentially incur so much more in health related expenditures is because of the lack of subsidies that would be provided for their RETIREES, not their current employees.  This illustrates another issue altogether--companies that get themselves into financial hot water by not properly managing the risk associated with providing for retirees in the form of pensions or ongoing health programs or other benefits.  This is what got the airlines in such a big mess.  It's not the health care bill that is doing it exclusively. It is bad financial management and risk tolerance.

Fourth, Aaron you live in California and just because small business around you are no longer there doesn't mean they don't exist altogether. Anecdotal stories don't make a good basis for arguments. 

Fifth... sorry... I just can't keep doing this.  People, please do research on what you believe... it really helps you to deliver a compelling argument.

my argument contained plenty of research, its funny how you always go back to your typical argument point of "do your research" every single time someone doesnt agree with you. my research was done, maybe not on your liberal sites or where you feel the need to find your facts based upon what you believe in. what is done is done, the war was a huge cost and should have not been done, we can agree on that, but we're not talking the war here.. so now we're just going to keep coming up with new ideas to keep pushing us further in debt instead of trying to create work and jobs to get us out of it. i suppose thats why im most mad about this, because since Obama has been in office nothing has changed, I didn't vote for him but I did have some optimism that he would in fact implement ideas that would save us from the Bush administration and get the economy back on track.  So far I've seen nothing and more and more Americans are getting fed up with the same BS as you watch his approval rating continue to decline.  Like ThugginInDeleware said it's probably because since the Democrats are in such power and nothing has happened yet they polically, have to do something before the next elections.

I didn't go read into the caterpillar debate cuz there was a ton of stuff i just read a couple articles on USAtoday which didn't go into detail just explained a 20% hike in fees..  my argument comes from why pass this when most the country needs work not more bills to pay and if you don't pay it they're going to take it anyway.. sure it's over a period of time and not immediately.  why not just let us not have health care if thats what we so choose.  it's easy for those of you with jobs to think this bill is positive because you can afford it. it will help small businesses but they need to be encourage small businesses to start back up again at least here in California since we're in this huge debt about to go broke, it might be a step in the right direction in that aspect of it since people dont have to worry about 35% of their employees benefits but i dont know if it's enough without any economic growth for people to want to get the loans to start the businesses back up or even hire more people, seems like just a better way for businesses to cut costs and stay optimistic that business might pick back up or so they have more money to stay afloat while it tries to.  it's obvious we're never going to agree on this and for the sake of trying to show both sides of the argument here on Decoy I always want to throw in my two cents so people don't think this is a one-sided website, we're all allowed to speak our minds for the sake of debate, there's going to be debate til the end of time. 

I say do research because, if you'd researched either Caterpillar or Medicaid, you would have seen that the points you were bringing up weren't necessarily on point.  This is a perfect example of no research being done, or just doing a minimal amount to get a talking point in.

As for adding costs to poor people... I am having a hard time understanding the line of argumentation you're using.  The point of this bill is to PROVIDE health care for poor people. If anything, the people with jobs and who are "making a living" will be the ones who end up footing the bill for those who can't afford health care (similar to how income tax works--people with an income pay income tax while those with no income don't).  Taxes from those who "make money" help subsidize the health care for those who can't afford it. I'm no expert on the payment methods that will be employed, but I'm sure that in the next 3-4 years we'll get a better picture.

In regards to California... well, I think Cali is fucked, economically speaking. The state has dug itself such a hole that everything has gone to shit in that state.  Best advice I can offer anyone suffering through having to live in that state (or Nevada or Michigan) is get the hell out, if you can.  These states are in untenable positions and can't help out their population.

And to lighten things up, here's a health care plan I'm behind 110%

dang hope we didnt scare anyone off from posting now.. seems like in that last thread it totally died once we got into it.. id be interested to hear some other opinions for and against it cuz me and you both know where we stand on all these political topics.

I use the states insurance because my monthly medical supplies cost way too much money for a single person to pay for.Regardless of what job I'm working when and regardless of how much money I make.

1) Medicare for all would be the cheapest and most efficient way of universal coverage
2) Right now Medicare for all is politically impossible
3) CBO scored this as a deficit reducer...say what you want but they're the refs.
4) the morality behind this is that we cant let our citizens die or suffer because they cant afford health care
5) theres nothing wrong with consumer protections
6) still hungover from saturday and lists are easy

"How can you not be against the amount of debt this health care bill will
cause for our kids and grandkids?" - actually the non partisan Congressional budget office says it will lower the national deficit by 1.3 billion dollars over the next twenty years.

 "Obama bought the vote by giving his
executive orders and promising certain democrat house reps what they
have been going to vote no for, such as no public money will go for
abortion." - That's not called buying the vote. That's called compromising.

"Basically we need to be spending money to create jobs not passing a huge
health care bill" - oh yeah, we need to be passing that bill that lets us turn on the job creating machine. because it's that simple.

"I just don't agree with the timing of it all, why now?" - you agree that we need health care reform. so you agree the health care situation in america is bad. Logically, it's therefore on a downward spiral and it's only going to get worse. So logically, now is the best time available to do it, because it will be harder to accomplish and more costly as time goes on. Ideally, 20 years ago would have been the best time.

..and that's not even touching on all the good rebuttals Rick made...