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What are people's thoughts on the proposed bailout for GM, Ford and Chrystler? Personally I don't think it will do a bit of good. Until the unions either A) are dissolved or B) make some hefty concessions, the "Big 3" are doomed to fail.

like that one guy said awhile back. the auto industry saved this country from the great depression. with that said, i dont think giving the auto industry money is going to change anything. we gave money to the banks in hopes of them loosing their lending but they still are only taking mainly 700+ credit scores. until the average person (600+ credit score) can secure a loan no one is going to buy anything. i know there will be people who think that's what caused this problem in the first place, sub-prime lending and you're probably right. people got too greedy and it bit em in the ass but you can't just suddenly stop all lending. people who had the 700+ scores are the ones being laid off and struggling to pay bills now so soon only a small fraction of the population will have those kinds of scores.

The bank bailout gets a D+ from me so far. Horrible planning, execution, transparency, and accountability. That being said, I believe we absolutely need an auto bailout, but it needs to have some major caveats built into it that are acted upon, such as a mandated increase in fuel economy year over year for ALL models of vehicles, limits on all executive pay and making executive pay contingent on performance, forcing unions to make concessions, using bailout money only to transform current vehicle designs and assembly lines into more efficient versions of what exists, and so forth. Without any type of limitations on bailout money, it just gets spent frivolously (as has happened in the financial bailout).

Do you think that giving them money is going to ultimately save them? It will probably help them for a couple months, but after that, they're gonna be in trouble again. I say let them go bankrupt, restructure to business models of the Toyotas and Hondas, and then maybe they can make it.

How is having them do an extremely shitty, hatchet job restructuring under chapter 11 any better than allowing the auto makers to restructure under better terms through a bailout, which also allows them to not have the stigma of bankruptcy attached to them. Would you be willing to buy a new car from a company that is bankrupt? I wouldn't. Any moment they could be forced to file chapter 7. At least with a well structured bailout they have a better chance of survival. I could really give two shits about the auto makers themselves, but the employment ramifications that would ripple throughout the US would be disastrous if the big 3 (or even if one or two of them) went bankrupt.

They need exponentially more $ than they're going to get for the bailout to help them for longer than a couple months. For them to restructure (which they certainly have to do) while not in bankruptcy, it's going to take hundreds of billions. Here's another question that I think needs to be asked. Why is it that GM and Chrystler are in danger of folding in the near future, and Ford is in relatively good shape (I think I heard/read where Ford expects to return to profitability in a year or so)? What is Ford doing that GM is not? Also, Ford might be a good company to buy stock in if the other two are on their way out.

Yes, they will probably need more money. That's a given. In relative terms, even 100 million to GM and Chrysler is a mere pittance compared to the trillions spent on the financial industry. Again, I don't think it should be given freely. There needs to be strict adherence to guidelines in order to have access to gov't money and there needs to be a well planned strategy for repaying that debt, even if it is a long term plan. Imagine how many US jobs will be lost if GM and Chrysler fold. I would see it at the million mark easy when you not only consider the loss of jobs for GM and Chrysler employees, but also for related industries. The steel industry, the auto parts industry, the tire industry, the raw material inputs generating companies. All of the sudden a huge chunk of their customer base is wiped out. Yeah, of course the counter is they can look to other customers, but then you have spend more money on marketing and sales and you don't have that money because you just lost your income stream. It would be a huge clusterfuck for the economy. If you think Detroit is a shitty place to live now, it would be beyond saving without any auto related jobs. Pittsburgh would be on the outs. Even some cities in your home state of Ohio, Johnny, would be in jeopardy of turning into unemployment and crime filled wastelands. As for Ford, they've simply got more money in their coffers that they can work with. Good for them for at least being somewhat responsible, but I'd still avoid their stock like the plague.

Dayton, the city where I grew up, has been hit incredibly hard by the downturn in the auto industry. There was multiple GM assembly plants, not to mention countless supplier companies like Delphi. Today, most of the plants are closed because they happened to be making SUV's and we all know how that fad turned out. I certainly feel for the people who have/will have lost their jobs if and when the companies go under, but I am strongly against this government forced socialism/nationalism. Capitalism does work, but its survival of the fitest. Some companies go and some will take their place. Its an ebb and flow.

I am 110% in favor of capitalism taking its course... in a vacuum. The overriding factor with the auto bailout is that these numerous US companies will fail and the void they leave will be filled... but not in the US. It's that single reason that our gov't is thinking of stepping in. Our national economy and our success as a nation depends upon us staying strong in world markets. Johnny, in sentiment and general beliefs, I think we're in perfect alignment, however, I have to deviate from that path because of the extenuating circumstances of the impacts that would be felt on the US middle class with such a huge auto failure.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/12/10/business/1210-biz-webLEONHARDT.gif - There's a lot of problems in this world and they all intertwine in some way. With a better national health care plan, not only will it help the auto industry, but jobs and cost of living around the nation. They could bridge the gap between US auto industry pay and foreign pay. They could make a more quality product that restores peoples faith in American auto's. There's plenty of people who are buying cars now, that aren't American made, just for the fact that some foreign cars are cheaper and more reliable. There's also the problem of the lack of loans and money in Americans pocket. This problem is so multifaceted, that any great solution and help needs to be thought out and have strict guidelines. The last thing the auto industry needs is a get rich quick shot of money in the arm, it needs a whole restructuring.

how does fixing unions have anything to do with this problem? labor costs account for 10% of what it takes to make a car at any of the big 3. typical conservative rhetoric. in the last 35 years the average worker has seen his wages stay the same, while producing 50% more. while the top 1% and even more so the top 10th of 1% have seen excessive gains. 30% percent of our workforce was unionized 35 years ago, now its 12% and if you take out the public sector its about 6%. Unions are who speak for the workers, who fight for employees benefits. For example, before St. Reagan there used to be a thing call the "Outrage Constraint" which made sure the the top executive could only make 30x what the guy on the bottom made. if the CEO made more than that, the workers would get pissed, the unions would get pissed, and production would suffer. Thats gone now. The average CEO makes about 350x what the guy on the bottom makes. The auto bailout sucks, i dont want to give 15 billion dollars to 3 companies who have market capital of only 8 billion, it would make more sense to nationalize the Big 3, and save 7 billion dollars in taxpayer money. BUT i dont think we need an estimated 3million people out of work, and countless more effected by not recieving their pensions, health coverage, unemployment, and various other entitlements. We have to stop looking at this as bailing out the Big 3, but bailing out 3million americans who were just doing their job. and there is something to say for unfair foreign trade practices, but that shit is a byproduct of deregulating our markets and other supply side, chicago, right wing economics, so all i have to say on that one is i told you so. bail them out, then regulate the piss out of them.

plenty of spelling errors WHERE THE FUCK IS THE EDIT BUTTON

Editing is for pussies. Proof-read before hitting the "Submit" button, bitches! And I want to apply for a bailout for my brokerage account. It's way too red right now.

How is what a CEO makes hurting the auto industry? Typical liberal rhetoric...class warfare at its finest.

yeah dude, executives making tens of millions of dollars while their industry is failing and their companies are having to lay off thousands of workers, they should totally keep their money, in fact they should be getting a bonus. If a corporation cant afford to pay their retirees or increase wages than how can they afford multi million dollar annuities for execs? See this is where supply side economics fails in America, incentives and bonuses are given to those who fail! also executive pay has gone from generous to excessive, so excesive that its diminishing per share earnings of the company, which in turn causes stock prices to fall. its bad to the shareholders and the taxpayers, but most of the time the average citizen or average worker is the one who pays for it. Executives eating more of the "earnings pie" means the majority of the workforce goes hungry, and less people spending money and consuming IS THE WORST THING TO DO IN A RECESSION/DEPRESSION. its basic Keynesian economics. if a CEO is making $28.2 million (like the CEO of Ford) regardless of performance, than what is his incentive to improve? especially since severance packages for CEOs are often way more than 1 years salary.

Paying the retirees $90k a year is what got them in this problem. You are offended that a CEO makes $28.2 million, but I'm sure it doesn't bother you a bit that people on the assembly line make $60k+ a year? $60k to push a botton or drill a piece in? Are you kidding? Thats as much as my wife and I make combined and we both have college educations and are close to both having masters degrees. If you break down that CEO's $28mil and spread it out to all 1 million employees, that is a whopping $28 extra that each one would make.

well the UAW only represents 150,000 workers in the Big 3, so it would be $564 per person, which is enough to buy clothes for your kids or pay your cell phone bill for the year, or christmas presents. dude, i totally agree that some aspects of how they treat their labor is excessive. But giving your employees benefits, decent pay, and a pension is not the reason this happened. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan all have the same plans for their employees and their not being bailed out. Its the people who are running the company. The Ford family cant even run the Lions, and were actually debating the causes of why their Fortune 500 company isn't doing well. As far as you being educated and almost getting your masters, well congrats. but think about this, the top 25 hedge fund managers in New York City made as much as all 80,000 public school teachers in NYC combined. Interesting enough, the average teacher (math,science,english,history) in NYC has a masters degree, The average HFMs has an MBAs, and the income disparity in this country grows wider. In the end, who contributes more to our society and economy? were in a second gilded age. instead of robber barons we have hedge fund managers. Organized Labor can save the modern worker.

Both my wife and I are teachers...don't lecture me.

Proud to be union (I'm a union worker by the way). In all honesty, the union isn't what it use to be. If I can recall, auto workers make like $72/hour (including fringe benefits). That's quite a bit of money to make an hour. I think after I finish my apprenticeship I'll make around like $24.50/hr (w/o fringe benefits). Our benefit package is nice if you work full-time and not have to pay for it, but if you don't it's all fucked up.

then stop being bitter and ignorant.